Revealing Eschatology.

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An Apologetic on Babylon the Great of Revelation.

In Don Preston's article, May 11,06, "Babylon the great of Revelation," Don concludes that Babylon must refer to Jerusalem because only Jerusalem killed Old Testament prophets. He quotes here, "--and prophets in Revelation must refer to Old Testament prophets. Rev. 16-6;17-1-6;18-20,24 tell us that Babylon was drunk with the blood of the prophets. This is a critical point! The term "the prophets" appears 88 times in the New Testament. The overwhelmingly usage of the term refers to Old Testament prophets." (End of quote).
This argument is rather weak because for one example, Rev. 18-20 evidently refers to New Testament apostles "and prophets." It reads, "Rejoice over her, (thou) heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." And Revelation 11 speaks of the two witnesses prophecying  as "prophets" which is evidently in the New Testament era. Paul speaks of prophets besides other gifts in 1 Cor. 12-27-28. Then explains in detail these functions and gifts concerning the prophets in 1 Cor. 12-29 to 14-40 in the church. We read in Ephe. 4-11-12, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." Clearly speaking here of the New Testament church and the gifts given to it by the Holy Spirit. So to argue that these are only Old Testament prophets given in Revelation is quite implausible.
Furthermore to identify Mystery Babylon of Revelation with Jerusalem is also implausible. For Jerusalem does not fit with the description given in Revelation chapter 17 as the city on seven hills or mountains. These hill or mountains represent "kingdoms." Now Jerusalem did not "come out" of the Roman Empire, yet the little horn of Daniel (which is identified with Revelation's Babylon) is said to come out of or from the Roman Empire (the 4th beast). Also this Mystery Babylon called "a woman" is seen as a whore in Revelation chapter 17. The term "whoredom" and "fornication" identifies corrupted Christians (Rev. 2-14,20,22). So it simply does not fit to identify Babylon with Jerusalem, but it certainly fits with the apostate church prophecied to come.
Going to Rev. 17-5, the word translated "Mystery" there is incorrect. The verse reads, "And upon her forehead (see Rev. 13-1) a name written, "Mystery Babylon the Great", the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth." The Greek word is "musterion" and simply means "a secret." It occurs in the Septuagint only 9 times; of the king's secret which had gone from him (Dan. 2-18,19,27,28,29,30,47 (twice) and Dan. 4-9.
Continuing in Rev. 11-8-9a, all critical texts read; "And their dead body* (sing.) on the street of the great city, which is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where their* Lord also was crucified. And the peoples (lit. Heb.,some of the peoples) and tribes and tongues and nations, look upon their corpse* (sing.) three days and a half, (Rev. 11-9b) and do not suffer their corpses* (plural) to be put into a tomb." Here in verse 8 we see these two witnesses are seen as "one", their dead body, rather than bodies, as being two individuals. Also given in the first part of verse 9, where they look upon their corpse. The verse goes on to say "their dead body--on the street of the great city." It does not "name" the "great city," literally, but makes clear it is "figurative" in that it is "like" Sodom and Egypt in its spiritual nature. Like Sodom seen in Genesis chapters 18-19 and 2 Peter 2-6. And like Egypt seen in Exo. 1-1-15.
Now we ask, if this "great city" be "Jerusalem," why did John not write; "---the great city Jerusalem that has become as Sodom and Egypt." For she is mentioned as such in scripture (Neh. 7-3-4; Jer. 22-5,7-9), which surely John knew to be. No, it is not Jerusalem, that is why John indicates it is figurative speech. Why he wrote "the great city which is called spiritually (figuratively) Sodom and Egypt." The following words of John's sentence continues to indicate this to us. "---where "their" Lord also, was crucified." The translators of scripture changed the word "their" to "our" in their translation of the word. For the critical texts and the G.L.T.Tr.A WH. and R.V. properly reads Greek "auton" translated "their", instead of "hemon" to mean "our". The proper translation is "where their Lord also, was crucified," not literally but "spiritually." As is seen in Heb. 6-4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit (recieved the Holy Spirit)---.If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify* (spiritually) to themselves the Son of God afresh (again), and put (Christ) to an open shame."
This is the meaning of Rev. 11-8, "And their dead body on the street of the great city (a great city-not Jerusalem), which is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where their Lord also, was crucified." Spiritually crucified, by those who had fallen away, by those who had partook of the Holy Spirit, in this city spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. (V.9) "And the peoples (lit., some of the peoples) and tribes and tongues and nations (of this city) look upon their corpse three days and a half and do not suffer their corpses to be put into a tomb."
We see in Rev. 11-1-2 that John begins to indicate this very fact to us. That "Jerusalem" is not the "city" being spoken of here in this chapter. "And there was given to me a reed like a measuring rod; and (the angel) said Rise, and measure the temple (Naos) of God, and the alter, and those who worship therein. But the court that is without the temple (naos) cast without, and measure it not; because it is given up to the Gentiles; and the holy city shall they thread underfoot forty and two months."
We see here that John was to measure, figuratively speaking, the Naos (temple) of God, and not its outer precincts. The problem that arises here is that the partial and full preterists see this verse as being the temple in Jerusalem before its fall. For they believe that the book of Revelation was written several years prior to the fall of Jerusalem (mid 60's), and not in 90-95 A.D. as most scholars and Christians hold to. But the problem with the preterist approach is even if we were to agree with the mid 60's writing of Revelation, where the temple mentioned here is the Jerusalem temple prior to its fall, why is it called "the Naos of God"? For at that time God no longer seen the temple in Jerusalem, nor the city as "holy", for he had rejected it. When they, the Jewish nation rejected His Son Jesus Christ their Messiah, shortly before his crucifixion many years prior to Jerusalem's fall. This is seen in Matt. 23-37-39 and Luke 19-41-44. "---Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt. 23-38). "---because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation" (Luke 19-44).
If this were the temple in Jerusalem that John writes of here it would not be called "the Naos of God." No, it is written this way to indicate to us that this "Naos of God" considered "holy" here is "not the temple in the city of Jerusalem." This can be seen in the words of the following verse; "---and the holy city* shall they thread underfoot forty and two months." We see here the "city" is considered "holy" as is the Naos (temple) of God that resides in it; so this cannot be Jerusalem and its temple as noted. And again we note that John did not write, "and the holy city "of Jerusalem" shall they thread underfoot forty and two months." No, Rev. 11-1-2,8-9 that speaks of the temple (Naos) of God and the holy city is not the temple and city of Jerusalem being spoken of here. It is another temple in another city when the prophecy would come to fulfillment with the two witnesses accompanying that prophecy.
There is much that could be written in Revelation that simply does not fit nor apply to Jerusalem, the temple and the Jewish nation as they being its fulfillment. Like the beast, the false prophet, the woman and etc., which would have dominion over the kings of the earth and be worshipped for a time. History shows us quite the contrary of that time. Rome was the dominent power not the Jewish nation. She was subserviant to Rome and under her dominion. And she certainly was not "worshipped" by the world, or known world at that time. Much to much to be discussed here in this article.
Therefore, in closing, regarding this issue and the many other issues concerning eschatology, we have a website that you can visit if you wish to as to these important issues. Our address is; http://www.twospiritshendora.com.
The literal Greek in Rev. 17-18 is; "Kai (and) h (the) gunh (woman) hn (whom) eideo (thou sawest), estin (is) j (the) poliv h (city) megalh (great) j (which) ecousa (has a) basileian (kingdom) epi (over) twn (the) basilewn (kings) thv (of the) gjhv (earth)." So the translation reads, "And the woman whom thou sawest is the city great, which has a kingdom (religious and political) over (dominating over) the kings of the earth."
By this verse we now can see who "Mystery Babylon" is. It is the beast of the sea, the 7th, the political beast kingdom. Which is also the beast of the earth, the 8th, the religious beast kingdom (the woman) who rides upon the beast of the sea. To indicate she is "a part" of the beast kingdom's makeup. And this "Mystery Babylon kingdom" is called "the woman" the "great city" which has "a kingdom" (who dominates) "over the kings of the earth."
God bless, Twospirits.
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(Article updated on Jan. 14,07).

Recently, it came to my attention of certain statements that were made on Lighthouse World Ministries on John Anderson's Sunday night radio program on Nov. 12,06 by guest Don Preston. The statements referred to the article I wrote on "An Apologetic on Babylon the Great of Revelation," posted on Planetpreterist.com and seen here above on Nov. 12,06.
On this program host John Anderson stated to Don Preston, "(Don) you mentioned an article (my posted article), I just sent you a copy of this from Planetpreterist,---. (Don replies here) "Yes indeed, I just got those scanned ever so briefly, and I was going to email you back and see if those gentlemen would be willing to come on the program and perhaps discuss the issues that they had raised." As they spoke John Anderson agreed with Don on this idea of discussing the issue on his program.
As they went further on into the program, when speaking of Babylon, John Anderson says to Don Preston,"--I hope I can get this guy on the broadcast about Babylon in the book of Revelation being the fall---,(Don replies here) "--the fall of Judah---(John replies) "--absolutely, its Judah's demise---(Don replies) "Yes, yes, I certainly hope this gentleman who wrote the article on Planetpreterist will be willing to come on this program and to debate this issue. I mean "he calls people," to uh, as it were, "to leave Planetpreterist and come over on to his,---go to his website" (italics mine) and read what he had to say about Babylon, which is just fine,--okey. I encourage people to read all different views to take in all the evidence and asimulate that evidence and to make up, and make---a wise knowledgeable scriptural based decision. So "I have no problem posting an article on Planetpreterist," (italics mine) uh, but my point is this, but if he's "going to challenge preterists" (italics mine) to take another look, then he ought to be willing to come on this program and to present his case, uh, in a formalized type of discussion with you as the moderator, which you've done many many times, and to let our audience and anyone who wants to tune in to hear the evidence for the identity of Babylon of Revelation. So we certainly hope we can get this gentleman on this program to discuss these issues." Here the comments end concerning the article and this writer.

Setting the Record straight.

Note that I italisized certain comments I found to be mispresenting of me and my reasons for presenting the article in good faith on Planetpreterist. And I wish to set the record straight here. First, Planetpreterist, I believe is one of very few of the many Christian sites out there, and there are many, that are "truely open" in their search for God's Truth, even though I and others may disagree with some of their teachings and doctrines. I found this to be so when I started to look into their site in September of 06. I found their site to be quite open and frank to one and all who may wish to present their opinions, comments, and even post articles if they wished to, governed by their rules posted there.
In posting an article "they recommend" that you give a URL address, be it an email or website address, "for those who may wish to contact you on the article posted. Since my email address is the same as my website address (@twospiritshendora.com), I gave my website address when I posted my 1st article on Nov.12,06, and for no other reason. Don Preston of all people should know this is so, because he is one of the columnists on Planetpreterist listed there on their web page.
Yet concerning me, he stated on John Anderson's program that (I) "--he calls people---to leave Planetpreterist---." An insinuation here that "I'm calling them to leave their teachings, views or beliefs, and "come over to his (my) website." Where in my article it shows this is simply untrue. He goes on to state, "I have no problem posting an article on Planetpreterist,---." Certainly, for he's a columnist there and he knows that "I did not go against their rules in any way on posting an article and giving my website address." Then he goes on to state, "but if he's "going to challenge preterists" to take another look---." I never in my article "challenged preterists", I only presented "my views" of what the scriptures revealed to me. That's why the article was titled "An Apologetic* on Babylon the Great of Revelation." The scriptural issues presented there, which Planetpreterist chose to post.
These truths can be seen in the last paragraph of that article. It states; "There is much more that can be said concerning this issue, but space and time will not permit." Certainly most, including Don Preston would realize this fact that a "short article" cannot cover all bibical issues such as these. "So in closing regarding this issue and the many other issues concerning eschatology---," I politely stated that if they wish to know more on this issue of eschatology that they can do so. This was done in following the rules outlined by Planetpreterist. So I stated, "--we have a website that you can visit "if you wish"* as to these important issues. We give an in-depth study on these issues "letting scripture speak the final word."* We also have a blog set up "if you wish"* to present your comments."
God bless, Twospirits.
So setting the record straight: I posted the article according to the rules set by Planetpreterist in giving my website address, and not for the reasons Don Preston insinuated in his statements concerning me. "That I call people--to leave Planetpreterist and come over to my website." And that "I challenge preterists." Not so, Planetpreterist posts many articles other than the preterist view; even some that are very critical of their views. Nevertheless, Planetpreterist chooses to post them, I believe, in order for the viewing audience to determine for themselves as they present these different views seen in those articles.

Don Preston's reply seen under "comments" to the article posted.
(Nov. 15,06) "I want to thank you for your thoughtful comments. Naturally, I do strongly disagree with them, and find them to be fundamentally flawed, and at odds with the text.
I have spoken with John Anderson of Lighthouse World Ministries, the host of a world-wide radio program aired each Sunday night, about having a two hour discussion between you and me. He is very much in favor of airing such a discussion. So if you would be interested in formally discussing the identity of Babylon of Revelation in a formal radio debate, please respond either here, or send me an email, and we can discuss the logistics.
I very much look forward to hearing back from you asap!
For His Truth and In His Grace,
Don K. Preston
(Reply to This).
I responded to his invitation in the second article posted on Nov. 16,06 on Planetpreterist titled; "An Apologetic on Dispensationalism." The reply is found under "comments" of the article.
(Nov. 19,06) "I am posting a reply here to those who had read and commented on my article submitted on Nov. 12,06, "An Apologetic on Babylon the Great of Revelation." I apologize for not answering on some of your comments, for I bagan having problems with my computer and could not respond after sending in this article. Hopefully now the problem has been corrected.
Don Preston sent me an invitation to debate him on John Anderson's Lighthouse World Ministries radio program  on Nov. 15,06. I felt highly honored to say the least that he would see me as a worthy opponent.
In response to your invitation Don, I want it noted here publicly for all to read that I must decline for health reasons. I am 64 years old and my health, my lungs, have deteriorated where now I have acute asthma. Where I have great difficulty carrying on a lengthy conversation without having an asthmatic attack. Which then takes me a time to regather myself. Thus I feel it would be unfair to you, John Anderson as well as the listening audience to say the least. In closing I want to thank you for your gracious offer, your brother in Christ Twospirits."
(Reply to This)
No reply was ever recieved.
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An Apologetic on Dispensationalism.

The Christian preachers and teachers who share certain ideas regarding prophetic end-time information, after a close examination of their teachings appear to have misunderstood the Old and New Testament. These ideas have produced the false teachings that: 1. The temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, 2. the old system of animal sacrifices will be restored, 3. all Israel (the Jewish nation) will be saved, 4. the "antichrist" and "false prophet" are to be two coming "super individuals" whom the world will follow; 5. Which at its fulfillment brings in a 1000 year reign on earth with Christ reigning from Jerusalem; with animal sacrifices continuing throughout his reign.
Those who hold to these prophetic views also teach that the church is not Israel, "the Israel of God." This teaching shows a foundational misunderstanding regarding the New Covenant. To accept the false teaching that the church (Jew and non-Jew) is not the Israel of God (the house of Israel); is to bring into question the words and promises of Jesus Christ; his apostles and every Old Testament prophecy regarding the New Covenant as being fulfilled by Jesus Christ.
When Christ established the New Covenant with the Israel of God, as Paul teaches, it defines "all" within it as being without race or gender (Ephe. 2-18-20). This is what the New Testament teaches, as we read in Gal. 3-28-29. "There is neither Jew nor Greek (Jew or non-Jew), there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." The apostle Paul could not have been any clearer. Any person regardless of his or her genetics Jew or non-Jew, or where they live who does not belong in Christ is "not" regarded as Abraham's descendants. They are considered to be outside the covenant. Paul in Gal. 6-14-16 writes, "---for neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." Paul writes in Romans 11-26 that all those "in the Israel of God will be saved. "---and thus (in this way, under the New Covenant) "all Israel" (the house of Israel, Jew and non-Jew) will be saved; just as it is written; the deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."
There is not one scripture that supports the teaching regarding a promise from God that an entire generation of people (Jews) will be saved. Nor is there one scripture that promises an entire generation will be saved "based" on their genetics. The term "all Israel" seen in Romans 11-26 is speaking of every faithful follower of God through time, and reaching into the future of all who will accept it, that is the New Covenant.
The most important chapter in the writings of Paul about the subject of the man of sin, many have come to call "the antichrist" is 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. There Paul predicts the coming of "the man of sin---the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple (Naos) of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2-3-4). Primarily because of verse 3, "the man of sin," millions teach and preach that there will be "one" super individual called "the antichrist" who will rise to power. But is this what Paul meant? In the book of 1 John, it plainly says that there are "many antichrists" (1 John 2-18) and a "spirit of antichrist" (1 John 4-3). John also wrote that any person who denies the true doctrine of Jesus Christ is "a deciever and an antichrist" (2 John 7,9). So here we see the idea of there being only "one" antichrist is contrary to these bibical teachings.
Prophecy also refers to these same antichrist as the "little horn" (Dan. 7-8), the "beast" (Rev. 13-1), "the mystery of iniquity" (2 Thess. 2-7), and "that Wicked" (2 Thess. 2-8). Do all these expressions refer to "one" evil person who will rise to power? Many agree that Daniel's "little horn", Revelation's "beast" and Paul's "man of sin" refer to the same thing. Daniel 7 describes 4 beasts; a lion, a bear, a leopard, and a dragon-like beast with ten horns (Dan. 7-3-7). Then comes the "little horn" from "out of" the head of the 4th beast (Dan. 7-8). This little horn has "eyes like the eyes of man," a "mouth speaking great things" and "makes war on the saints" (Dan. 7-8,21). This is exactly what "the beast" has and does in Rev. 13-5-7. Thus we see that the "little horn" in Daniel is the same as "the beast" in Revelation. What many fail to discern and understand is that in Daniel chapter 7 a beast is clearly defined as a "kingdom" and "not a man." The Holy scripture says, "---the fourth beast shall be the fourth "kingdom" upon the earth" (Dan. 7-23).
Going to Rev. 17-9-11 we read; "The seven heads are (represent) seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And they are also (also represent) seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, (and) the other (king/kingdom) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (time). And the beast (kingdom) that was, and is not, even he is the eighth (kingdom), and is of the seven (kingdoms) and goeth into perdition." The word "mountains" in scripture is a term also used for "kingdoms." And verse 11 makes it clear that it is speaking and represents "kingdoms", and not literal hills and mountains. Of these 7 it says, "the beast" that was---even he (of these 7 kingdoms/beasts) is the eighth (kingdom). Indicating to us that these are "not" hills or mountains but "kingdoms," and there are 8 of these kingdoms.
Now since we know that these verses speak of "kingdoms" and we are told that five have fallen, and the one "that is", we would then know to be Rome at the time this prophecy was given to John. Scripture only speaks of kingdoms that at one time or another dominated over Israel in one way or another. Therefore these spoken of here would be: 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome, who dominated at the time the prophecy was given. The 7th, the beast of the sea in Rev. 13-1-10 that John saw was yet to come. Verse 11 goes on to say of this coming beast, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he (the 7th beast kingdom) is the eighth (beast kingdom also), and is of the seven,---." This 7th beast kingdom who is also the 8th kingdom is seen in Rev. 13-11-18, the beast of the earth. The religious beast kingdom Revelation calls the false prophet in Rev. 16-13, "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast" (Rev. 13-12). The beast kingdom of the sea and the beast kingdom of the earth is political and religious in its nature and makeup, and are "a part of each other." Thus the different descriptions given it in Revelation. A "beast" a "false prophet" (Rev. 16-13) the "great city" and "great Babylon" (Rev. 16-19). The "great whore" that sits upon many waters" (Rev. 17-1). The "woman" who sits upon the beast (Rev. 17-7). "Mystery Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." And "the woman which thou sawest is that great city," the great city called a woman here which has "a kingdom over the kings of the earth." And this beast kingdom of the sea and of the earth is not Rome, nor Jerusalem, that sits on seven "hills". For the word "hill" is a bad translation, it should properly translate "mountains" which is to represent "kingdoms."
In 2 Thess. 2-4, Paul tells us that "the man of sin" opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, so that "he as God sits in the temple (Naos) of God showing himself that he is God." So by this text and Dan. 9-27, many today teach that an individual called antichrist will enter a literal rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, desecrate it and cause the reinstituted animal Jewish sacrifices to cease there. Dan. 9-27 states, "he causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease," but says nothing there of a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and a reinstitution of animal sacrifices is caused to cease. Also it seems, those who teach these things do not take into account the New Covenant brought in through Christ.
In 2 Thess. 2-4, the Greek word for "temple" is "naos", and Paul uses the same word in 1 Cor. 3-16. In 1 Cor. 1-2, writing to "the church of God" Paul states, "What! Do you not know that you are the temple (naos) of God ?" Here Paul defines the "naos" or "temple of God" to be the church. In fact in all of Paul's writings every time he used the word "naos" (2 Cor. 6-16; Ephe. 2-21-22) he always applied it to the Christian church, and never once to a literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem. When Jesus Christ died his death put an end to all earthly sacrifices. He became the final sacrifice (Heb. 10-12). And would a rebuilt Jewish temple be called here by Paul "the temple of God?" This by itself would be a denial of God's Son Jesus Christ. The inspired word tells us that the "naos" is "the temple of God, the church, the body of Christ." This means that "antichrist" to mean "many" will deceptively as predicted, enter Christianity, the body of Christ, and cause "the falling away." This is the meaning of "the sacrifice and offerings" that "are caused to cease." Because of the abominations in the body of Christ predicted for the end time.
Those who hold these views also refer to Rev. 11-2 as further confirmation that a literal temple will be rebuilt "in Jerusalem," with reinstituted Jewish sacrifices in progress when antichrist would come to power. For this temple is to be measured as would the alter and those that worship therein. But the outer courts are not to be measured for they are given over to trampling. This indicates that there is to be a literal temple to be measured, and where this temple of God exists is called in Rev. 11-2, "the holy city." Therefore they see Rev. 11-2 as being a literal rebuilt temple "in Jerusalem" with reinstituted Jewish sacrifices in progress. For they see the phrase "the holy city" as being "the holy city of Jerusalem." In the same way the preterists see these verses as being the temple in the holy city of Jerusalem prior to its fall in 70 A.D.
In the Old Testament scriptures, Jerusalem is called "the holy city." But since they rejected Christ, the New Testament teaches us that "Jerusalem" is no longer "the holy city." It has been left desolate (Matt. 23-38; Luke 13-35;19-41-44;21-24) unto the end. We read in Heb. 13-13-14, "Let us go forth therefore unto him (Jesus) without the camp (outside Jerusalem), bearing his reproach. For here (in Jerusalem) have we no (have we no longer a) continuing city (Jerusalem), but we seek one ( the New Jerusalem) to come" (see Ezek. 48-35 and Rev. 21-10-27). Those who hold the teaching that Rev. 11-1-2 refers to a rebuilt temple "in Jerusalem" are incorrect. Rev. 11-1-2 only states that where this temple sanctuary to be built resides in, is considered as being "a holy city," for the Lord's sanctuary is in its midst. It does not state that this sanctuary to be measured when built, would be "in the holy city of Jerusalem." For Jerusalem is no longer considered "the holy city of God." Nor does it state that there would be a reinstitution of Jewish sacrifices in progress at that time.
Many teach a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth because of the text seen in chapter 20 of Revelation. But it will be seen as we go along they are incorrect. There is no millennium as they see it in scripture. Chapter 19 of Revelation shows us that all the promises and judgements are fulfilled with the coming of Christ to bring in a new order. A new heaven and a new earth at a day and hour known only to the Lord. Like some of the other chapters given in Revelation, chapter 20 was given there to give us further details and events not given in the prior chapters. That is how Satan came to be "imprisoned" so that God's Will could be fulfilled on earth, the church age of grace brought in through His Son Jesus Christ. Where then "after the fulfillment time of Rev. 20-4-6 has been completed," Satan would be let loose again for a short season; to fulfill God's Will and salvation plan for mankind (see Rev. 17-17).
We begin in Rev. 20-1-7, "And I saw an angel descending out of heaven having the key of the Abyss* (see Rev. 9-1-11), and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,---." Here we see he was "bound" with "a great chain" that was in the angel's hand. And it is said he was bound this way 1000 years. A chain is used to "restrict, restrain, and control" an animal or individual, and this is what this represents here. He is "limited" in certain activities by God, restrained and under God's control for a 1000 years. It can be seen that this occurred when Jesus triumphed at the Cross. Where Satan recieved his sword wound to the head (Gen. 3-15). His "healing" is seen in Rev. 13-3 and 13-12, where it became healed through the beast (s). This "beast" whom Satan gives his throne and authority to. While we see Satan being bound this way for a 1000 years, we read in Rev. 20-4: "And I saw thrones and they sat upon them; and those that were beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus* and for the word of God." Note here, that these martyrs are Old AND New Testament saints. This refers us to Luke 22-30 and Matt. 19-28 where we read: "And Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory (not earth, but in heaven), ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." And this is the scene that John sees here occurring "in heaven" not on earth. By Jesus' statement, we see the thrones and those who sat upon them as being the apostles and others that had died "on account of the testimony of Jesus AND the word of God." Indicating Old AND New Testament martyrs. As we shall see, this is "a part" of the first group resurrected while Satan is restricted and bound for 1000 years. This time being "during the new Testament era," after Christ's crucifixion and the birth of the church beginning at Pentecost. The "next part" of the 1st group to be resurrected is given in the following words of Rev. 20-4. "And whosoever did not worship the beast nor "yet" his image (at this resurrection time, the beast was not as yet), and did not recieve the mark on their foreheads and on their hands, both (both groups the 1st and 2nd part resurrected) lived again and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (clearly showing in the New Testament era). Verse 5 goes on to explain this heavenly reign with Christ for a 1000 years while Satan is "bound." But we also read that the rest* of the dead, to be resurrected, "lived not again," were not resurrected UNTIL "the thousand years (the 1st 1000 years) be finished." And it tells us that this is called "the 1st resurrection." So we see that what consists of this "1st resurrection" is the group of whom some would sit on thrones to judge, but all resurrected would reign with Christ in heaven for "that" 1000 years. Where then "after" that time, the 2nd part, "the rest of the dead," would be resurrected. Just as the verse reads, "until the thousand years should be finished." The last part of verse 6 tells us what "their station" would be. This group raised after the 1000 years "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall (also) reign with him a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who hath part in the first resurrection; over these the second death hath not power---."
So we see the "1st resurrection" consists of two resurrections. But more importantly we see here that they are spaced "a 1000 years apart from each other." We read the 1st group, where some were given thrones and authority reigned with Christ a 1000 years. Where the rest of the dead were not resurrected "until" that 1000 years had ended. When that time had ended, those resurrected were to be priests of God and Christ. Who would also be given a reign with Christ for a 1000 years, as had the 1st group. And this is called "the 1st resurrection" with a total reign in heaven of not a 1000 years, but a reign of 2000 years. And this is called "The thousand years" and "the 1st resurrection." And it is AFTER that time we read; "And when THE thousand (the last 1000) years are completed, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison---." Here John brings us to "that time" as to when and how he would be loosed. We see that this occurred in Rev. 9-1-12 with the sounding of the fifth trumpet. "And the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star from heaven fallen (lit. had fallen) to the earth; and there was given to him the key of the pit of the Abyss." That being the key that the angel held in his hand seen in Rev. 20-1-3, where he had bound Satan up for that duration of time; for 2000 years. And "then" God allows Satan to be loosed by the key given him to unlock the Abyss. To be loosed for a little season; to fulfill the prophecy given in Revelation and elsewhere in scripture. To fulfill God's Will, bringing about the coming of His Son Jesus Christ, and to destroy all evil, authority and dominion.
And then Satan "will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the battle (Rev. 16-16;19-19-21), the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." Here "Gog and Magog" represent the nations as a whole. Ezekiel chapters 38-39 records the war and cause of this gathering of nations for the battle of "the great day of God Almighty." The final outcome of the battle occurs in Rev. 19-19-21. "And the devil that decieved them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." This verse is important to note, in that scripture makes clear that the Devil's destruction comes "after" all dominion, sin and death are conquered. And here we see that fulfillment, for Satan is cast into the lake of fire along with the beast and false prophet. And scripture clearly states that it then brings in "the eternal state," and not a 1000 year earthly reign with Christ living with, and ruling over sinful flesh. "Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; When he shall have put down all rule, all authority and power. For he must reign (in heaven for that time of chap. 20), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy (that) shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15-24-26). Sin and death in scripture is representive of the Devil, and this is the last enemy that's being spoken of here.
So we see that the destruction of the beast, false prophet, authority, dominion and Satan bring upon the great judgement; the Great White Throne, and not a millennium. No, no millennium, its over its done, and it is the time of judgement for all, as is seen in Rev. 11-14. "And I saw a great White Throne, and him that sat thereon, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and no place was found for them" (Rev. 20-11).
As was noted, the futurists who teach and preach these prophetic end-time teachings discussed here have a misunderstanding of the Old and New Testament, and are not scriptural in their foundation. Now we turn to the preterists concerning their teachings that proclaim that all or most of the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 A.D. Our question backed with the evidence of scripture given here concerning the book of Revelation and Ezekiel chapters 38-39, "Gog and Magog," as having been fulfilled in 70 A.D.: we ask them, how can this be? For as we have seen, scripture states in Revelation chapter 20, that Satan is to be bound in the Abyss UNTIL the time of the "1st resurrection" expires. He cannot fulfill the prophecy of Revelation, Ezekiel 38-39 and other related prophecies until then. That time being the heavenly reign with Christ, with the Old and New Testament saints that died for the testimony of Christ.* Which clearly is during the time of the church age after Christ's crucifixion. So whether one agrees here to a 1000 or 2000 years, the time certainly shows a minimum of a 1000 years before Satan can be loosed out of the Abyss seen in chapter 9 of Revelation to fulfill the prophecy. To fulfill the very prophecy that the preterists maintain was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Even holding to the position that "all" prophecy was fulfilled at that time. Scripture clearly shows this just cannot be. I leave it for the readers who seriously seek God's truth of scripture to decide.
In closing, the staff of Planetpreterist graciously published our article recently titled "An Apologetic on Babylon the Great of Revelation" on Nov. 12,06. And by the comments that was recieved on the article, it was made clear to us that we were not clear enough on "who" this "Mystery Babylon" was to be. Hopefully with this article, if it is accepted to be published, it makes clear who "Mystery Babylon" was to be and why "she" has different titles and descriptions given her.
God bless, Twospirits.
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The Great Debate: Who is the beast of Revelation?
(Submitted  Dec. 20,06).


In my recent articles, "An Apologetic on Babylon the Great of Revelation" (Nov. 12,06) and "An Apologetic on Dispensationalism" (Nov. 16,06); I found that the majority of the comments I recieved, concerned the topic of the beast of Revelation and Babylon the whore discussed in the articles. By these many comments on this topic, it became apparent to me that I did not present myself clearly enough on this issue. As we know volumes could be written on this subject alone, so it is impossible to compress it all in one short article. But hopefully, some things can be made clearer here on this important subject.
First it must be noted, if my understanding is correct, partial and full preterists see the beast of the sea of Revelation as being the Roman Empire. And Babylon, the woman, the harlot, the great city, as being Jerusalem "who rides this beast Rome" that turns on her and destroys her in 70 A.D. Whereas the futurists believe the beast of Revelation is yet to come. That the book of Revelation is a prophecy of things to come. That being said, in the hope of finding our answers, we will first turn to Daniel of God's Inspired Word of scripture. First, it must be noted here that scripture only speaks of kingdoms that at one time or another dominated over Israel in one way or another; though certainly other nations are mentioned that interacted with her. At the time that Daniel recieved the vision of the beasts, Egypt and Assyria were the two prior kingdoms who had dominated over Israel, with Babylon being the dominent kingdom in the time of Daniel.
In Dan. 7-1-7 we read that the 1st beast was compared to a lion having the wings of an eagle (V.4). The 2nd beast as like a bear (V.5). The 3rd beast resembled a leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads (V.6). The 4th beast was different from all the other beasts, and it had 10 horns (V. 7). Then in the following verse 8, we read that as Daniel was considering the horns, there then "came up among them another little horn, an 11th horn coming out from the 10 horns. "Before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and, behold, in this horn (were) eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." It is here in Dan. 7-8 that this "little horn" coming forth from the 10 horns of the 4th beast believed to be Rome, is seen this final beast kingdom to come. This kingdom is seen in Dan. 2-41-43;7-8;8-11-14,26;9-27;11-36 to 12-13; Rev. 13-1-18;17-1-18;18-1-24.
The 4 beasts given in Daniel represent kingdoms "and" kings who would be "ruling" when the prophecy would come to fulfillment. Though certainly many kings can come in an on-going kingdom. The 1st kingdom which was like a lion and an eagle represented Babylon, its king being Nebuchadnezzar. The 2nd kingdom represented the Medo-Persian Empire seen in Dan. 8-20. Its ruler, king Darius (Dan. 5-31) which conquered Babylon in 539 B.C. (Daniel chapter 5). The 3rd kingdom represented Greece, its king Alexander (Dan. 8-21). When Alexander died in 323 B.C. the Empire was divided up among his 4 generals, represented by the "4 heads and 4 wings" seen on the beast leopard. Its kings and kingdoms divided into smaller kingdoms was; Lysimachus given Thrace and Bithynia. Cassander its king, was given Macedonia and Greece. Seleucus its king, was given Syria, Babylon and land to the east. And Ptolemy its king, was given Egypt, Palestine and Arabia Petrea. The 4th beast kingdom was not named, but most scholars see it was historically the Roman Empire. Officially its first sole ruler/king at the time was Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C.
As noted, scripture only speaks specifically of "kingdoms and their kings" that at one time or another concerned Israel in one way or another. And here in Daniel it begins with the kingdom of Babylon and its king. Now taking the others not mentioned in Daniel into account, these would be: 1. Egypt, in the time of their captivity and Exodus. Since the king ruling at the time is unsure, he will be called "king Pharaoh" of the kingdom of Egypt. 2. The kingdom of Assyria, with its king at the time being king Shalmaneser V. Note that thus far in Daniel as the vision of the beasts and horns are mentioned, we see that the "horns" not only represent "kings" but "kingdoms" also when these prophecies would come to fulfillment. Therefore, the term "horns" spoken of in Daniel represent not only "kings" but "kingdoms" also, unless the texts speak otherwise.
It is important at this time to bring the king/kingdoms mentioned in scripture forward here. 1. Egypt-king Pharaoh, 2. Assyria-king Shalmaneser V, 3. Babylon-king Nebuchadnezzar, 4. Medo-Persia-king Darius, 5. Greece-king Alexander the Great. The divided Greek kingdom, 6. Thrace and Bithynia-king Lysimachus, 7. Macedonia and Greece-king Cassander, 8. Syria and Babylon-king Seleucus, 9. Egypt, Palestine, Arabia Petrea-king Ptolemy, 10. The Roman Empire-king Julius Caesar.
Now here we see "ten horn king/kingdoms" brought forth, where only eight horn king/kingdoms can be seen in Daniel's vision. And it is here in Dan. 7-7 that we sit when Daniel sees the vision of the 4th beast "Rome" having 10 horns. These horns represent all the prior king and kingdoms as well as the king/kingdom of Rome. They are all under Rome's submission and dominion, here showing Rome being dominent. "---behold a fourth beast,---diverse (different) from all the beasts that (were) before it; and it had ten horns." And this was the kingdom of Rome seen coming out of the 4 horn king/kingdoms of Alexander's divided kingdom seen in Dan. 8-9-10. Where the final beast kingdom to come would come forth "from Rome", the "little horn" having dominion over all the earth, seen in Dan. 7-8.
In Dan. 7-15-16, Daniel not understanding the vision asked one standing by the meaning of the vision. Daniel was told in verses 17-18 that these 4 beasts are 4 kingdoms that would arise from the earth. In verses 19-20, Daniel wanted to know the meaning of the 4th beast which was different from all the others. And about the 10 horns on its head, and about the other little horn that came up from the others. Daniel is given this explanation in Dan. 7-23-28. We note here that this was "prophecy" yet to be fulfilled concerning these 10 horn king/kingdoms that "shall arise" that would be seen upon the 4th beast Rome. And these 10 horn king/kingdoms would be the kings of the kingdoms listed above. The 10 kings and kingdoms that would include Rome when that fulfillment would come. The 10 horns are said to be "kings" here in verse 24, yes, of "kingdoms" to the time of  and including Rome. Then we are given the prophecy of the final kingdom to come, "after Rome," the kingdom of the feet and ten toes, the divided kingdom (Dan. 2-41-43). The one spoken of in Dan. 7-8,20,21 and here in verses 24-25 and etc. "And the ten horns out of this kingdom (Rome are) ten kings (king/kingdoms that) shall arise; and another* shall rise after them;---." This "other" is the little horn king/kingdom seen in Dan. 7-8,20,21 being spoken of here in these verses. "---and he shall be diverse (different) from the first (king/kingdom), and he shall subdue three kings (king/kingdoms). And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out (persecute) the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time" (Dan. 12-7,11,12; Rev. 11-2-3;13-5).
So thus far we have seen that in following the texts closely, we can determine the proper meaning of what the horns are to represent. They are seen as kings "and" kingdoms. Where this understanding is vital to the proper meaning of what the texts speak of concerning these prophecies given us in such a way.
In continuing in Dan. 8-9-12, we read; "And out of one of them," here it is out from the 4 divided Greek horn king/kingdoms. And like the other horns, this "little horn" represents a king/kingdom also. So here we can see that this little horn king/kingdom comes out from the 4 existing kingdoms. This "little horn" is not a "king" believed to be Antiochus Epiphanes IV, nor is he the "little horn" seen in Dan. 7-8. This is a "king/kingdom" growing out from among the 4 existing kingdoms that were established at that time. Which "waxed ( grew) exceeding great toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." As noted, most see this "little horn" in Dan. 7-8 and here in 8-9-12 as being Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling this prophecy in history, but he was not. He fulfilled the prophecy of Dan. 11-21-35 given there in history, but that is all.
The ram, the Medo-Persian Empire went largely "to the west" and not "to the east" in its conquests of territory and dominion. The goat, Greece, on the other hand came "from the west" attacking the Middle East. Alexander's conquests were always "east" of Greece. However the "little horn king/kingdom" in Dan. 8-9 began its power to "the south" and  "to the east" and toward the pleasant land, that being further east, the holy land. Therefore this indicates that the little horn king/kingdom would lie somewhere "north and west" of the areas it would come against. Antiochus Epiphanes' kingdom lay north and "east", not "west" of the areas he would come against seen in history. His kingdom lay "northeast" in Syria, and he attacked to the "south" and "west", and not to the "south" and "east."
Also there is a distinction between the "little horn" mentioned here in Dan. 8-9 and the "little horn" of Dan. 7-8. In Dan. 7-8 we see the "little horn" coming "out of" the "4th beast kingdom." Although not mentioned, most agree this 4th beast kingdom to be Rome. So here we have a great problem. How can the little horn king/kingdom in Dan. 7-8 be Antiochus Epiphanes where he is seen to come out of the divided "3rd kingdom of Greece", and not the 4th kingdom said to be Rome? So we ask, how can the little horn king/kingdom in Dan. 7-8 AND in Dan. 8-9 be Antiochus Epiphanes believed to be the one who fulfilled "this prophecy"? Scripture shows us that this cannot be. He is neither the "little horn" in Dan. 7-8 nor is he the "little horn" in Dan. 8-9. Antiochus Epiphanes came out of the divided kingdom of the 3rd beast kingdom of Greece.
When reading Dan. 8-19-22 we see Gabriel's interpretation fulfilled and confirmed in history. We see these verses referred to Medo-Persia and Greece. But the passage of Dan. 8-23-26 have been the subject of different opinions and interpretations. Some see it as being fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, while others hold to a future fulfillment by the final coming beast kingdom. Daniel was told in 8-17 that the vision of chapter 8 concerns the distant future. "For at the time of the end (shall be) the vision."
Jesus points us to this very prophecy in Matthew 24 concerning the end time. He said, "When you see the abomination spoken of in Daniel---." This was said by Jesus nearly 200 years "after" the events of Antiochus Epiphanes. By these very words Jesus is confirming that the prophecy "had yet to be fulfilled." So Jesus confirms to us by this passage that though some, or many, may believe that Epiphanes completed this prophecy, the little horn of Dan. 7-8 and 8-9 are in error. If we are to believe Jesus' word, the word of God, then we can believe that this passage in Daniel has yet to reach its fulfillment, among the other reasons given here.
THe final vision given to Daniel was recorded in Daniel chapters 10-12. What is recorded in Dan. 11-2-35 are the major events, with the major rulers of the Persian Empire and from there continuing to the major events of the Alexandrian period, ending with the prophecy many agree to be Antiochus Epiphanes from 175-164 B.C. All said as having been fulfilled in history by these rulers and events. Antiochus Epiphanes IV appears in Dan. 11-21-35. The attempt of Antiochus to destroy the Jewish religion was described by Daniel in these passages. We read in verse 35, "Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." The reference to "the time of the end" referred to the remaining prophecy beginning in verse 36 to 45. And this was not the fulfillment of the reign of Epiphanes as many believe. Antiochus, as history records, died shortly after fulfilling Dan. 11-21-35 in the year 164 B.C. He did not fulfill any of the events described in these verses of Dan. 11-36-45.
When Antiochus Epiphanes IV became king, he was but another king of the prior 4 established kingdoms that were divided up from the Greek kingdom of Alexander. Now we have seen that when we strictly follow the order of direction given as the "little horn" grew in power, among other evidence given here; we see it does not fit the activities taken by Antiochus Epiphanes. The evidence given here tells us that the "little horn king/kingdom" given in Dan. 7-7 and 8-9 is Rome.
In the 6th century B.C. the city of Rome was just a small fortress town in central Italy, but in a short time would begin to expand her territories. Here this represents "the little horn" in this text of Dan. 8-9 that started "small" but would grow in power toward the "south." After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his 4 generals struggled for control of his Empire. Cassander gained control of Greece and Macedonia. Lysimachus ruled Thrace and a large part of Asia Minor. Seleucus, Syria, Babylon and much of the Middle East (all of Asia except Asia Minor and Palestine). Ptolemy controlled Rgypt and Palestine. About 275 B.C. after years of warfare, the Empire had been carved into "three large kingdoms" ruled by the descendants of these general/kings.
During those times, the Romans had expanded their territories in the Italian peninsula as far "south" as the city-states of the Greek kingdom. The Greek kingdom given to Cassander of Greece and Macedonia in western Europe. In the following years (264-201 B.C.) Rome fought a series of long wars with Carthage. The Romans finally defeated them in 202 B.C. Rome now had dominance as far "south" as Carthage and beyond in North Africa. After adding Spain in the north to her conquests, Rome then turned "toward the east". To the "east" of Rome lay Thrace, Macedonia, Greece and her city-states.
After Antiochus became ruler in 169 B.C., in 168 B.C. Antiochus invaded Egypt for a second time but was not successful. The Roman fleet had come to Alexandria at the request of the Ptolemies (Dan. 11-30). In that year the Romans won a victory over Macedonia who lay east of Rome, expanding her territories to "the east." By 146 B.C. Macedonia was officially made a province of the Roman Empire. Thus expanding her territories "to the east" as the context of Dan. 8-9 reveals. At this time Rome had gained power and dominance to the "south" and to "the east" as far as the Mediterranean Sea. Where further east lay the Middle East, where the pleasant land lay.
By 129 B.C. Rome created the province of Asia, where it then embarked on further expansion in the Middle East of Asia Minor. By 49 B.C. Rome's rule extended far beyond the Mediterranean basin. At this time we see Rome, the "little horn" fulfilling the prophecy seen in Dan. 7-7 and 8-9. It is here we read, "Out of one of them (the divided Greek kingdom) came another horn (the kingdom of Rome), which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the pleasant land." During the 1st century A.D., much of England and Whales was added, and during the 2nd century Romania also. "It grew until it reached the host of the heavens,---." (Dan. 8-10). The reference given here is it grew as far  north as England and beyond from which would come the Lord's host, his saints. And from there would come the final kingdom of the feet of ten toes made of iron and clay; the divided kingdom seen in Dan. 7-7-8,20,21,23-25;8-11-14;9-27;11-36 to 12-13. And this final kingdom would fulfill the prophecy of the book of Revelation. This kingdom being the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth seen in Rev. 13-1-18.
When the birth of Christianity came through our Lord Jesus Christ, Christianity spread quickly throughout the Roman Empire in spite of persecution. By the 4th century Christianity had become the state religion of the entire Roman Empire from England to Asia. Christianity became an organized church with a hierachy closely identified with the Roman Empire, with great power in governmental and civil matters. From the 11th century on Christendom ruled from the church of Rome and extended over the entire continent. From Iceland to Italy and from Sweden to Spain. By the time of the 17th century most rulers were convinced that the key to stable government was control of both religion and politics. But this only caused chaos and wars throughout Europe. This brought about the "Age of Revolutions" (1776-1848). The age of Revolution that brought about the birth of the United States.
This is the history of the "little horn", the kingdom of Rome, the iron legs, the "Holy Roman Empire" who would fulfill the prophecy of Dan. 8-9-10a. Daniel 8-10b-14 and other scriptures, relate to the final kingdom of the feet and ten toes of iron and clay, the divided kingdom who would come forth and fulfill their part of the prophecy; "in the latter part of its reign." The kingdom that would come from the iron legs of the Holy Roman Empire, from England and various parts of Europe and elsewhere of the Roman Empire's kingdom.
Going to Rev. 17-7 we read, "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns." The angel then begins to explain further in Rev. 17-9-10a what the heads represent. "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth. And they are seven kings;---." We see here that the 7 mountains "are" or are to "represent" 7 kings. So we see these mountains are "not" to mean heaps of earth or rocks, but "kings." The word "mountain", Greek "oros" is often used as a figure for a "kingdom." For example it is used of ancient Babylon in Jer. 51-25, and of Christ's kingdom in Dan. 2-35. So we see here the "7heads" are to represent "7 kings" and "7 mountains," and these mountains represent "kingdoms," and not literal earth and rocks. The representation given here is that the heads represent king/kingdoms. Continuing with verse 10,"--five are fallen, and one is, (and) the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space " (time).
Now that we can see these are to represent 7 king/kingdoms, we can know who the five that had fallen are and the one who "is" at the time of John's revelation. These would be; 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome. And the 7th, the one to come is seen in Rev. 13-1-10, the beast of the sea. The preterists that hold that the seven  hill/mountains are literal "hill/mounts" on which the woman sits, which they claim is Jerusalem are in error. They also take these seven hill/mounts to represent Rome (???). Now the question is, they are also said to represent "kings," human kings. How can a "city" they say to be Jerusalem "sit on" seven kings? They cannot literalize one (hills) and spiritualize the other (kings), as the text clearly shows. Though much more could be said, I leave it at that.
We read in Rev. 17-11, "And the beast* that was,---." Now clearly we see here that this word "beast" refers to a king/kingdom." ---and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven,---." So here we see this beast king/kingdom that was and is not, "he" the beast king/kingdom is the eighth. To mean he is the 7th and 8th also. He is the 7th and 8th beast king/kingdom to come, "--and will go into perdition" (destruction). This 7th and 8th beast kingdom, seen as being  one, "he" the beast in this verse, is the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth seen in Rev. 13-1-18. Now how can Rome be this 7/8th beast king/kingdom that fulfilled the prophecy of Revelation in 70 A.D.? We have seen in scripture from Exodus on to the time of Rome only 6 king/kingdoms concerning Israel/Jerusalem had come against her. If Rome was the fulfillment of the prophecies given us in the book of Revelation as preterists claim, then the scriptures are in error. For they speak of yet a 7/8th kingdom to come. I for one stand by God's Inspired Word.
This 7th kingdom, the beast of the sea is political, the 8th kingdom, the beast of the earth called the false prophet in Rev. 16-13, also "exerciseth all the power of the first beast " (Rev. 13-12). The beast kingdom of the sea and of the earth is political and religious in its nature and makeup, are a part of each other and seen as one here in Rev. 17-11. Thus the different descriptions given it, a "beast," a "false prophet" (Rev. 16-13), the "great city", the "great whore" that sits upon many waters (17-1). The "woman" who sits upon the beast (17-7). "Mystery Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." The "woman which thou sawest is that great city, which has a kingdom* over the kings of the earth" (17-18).
In my article, "An Apologetic on Dispensationalism" (Nov. 16,06), I gave scriptural evidence that rejects the teaching of a 1000 year earthly reign. In that article I also rejected the preterist view as Rome being the fulfillment of prophecy in 70 A.D. with the city of Jerusalem's destruction and etc. It was asked in the article, "--concerning the book of Revelation and Ezekiel chapters 38-39, "Gog and Magog," how could this have been fulfilled in 70 A.D.? For scripture states in Revelation chapter 20 that Satan is to be bound in the Abyss "until" the time of the "1st resurrection" expires. He cannot fulfill the prophecy of Revelation, Ezekiel chapters 38-39 and other prophecies related, until then. That being the time of the heavenly reign of Christ with Old and New Testament saints that died for the testimony of God and Christ. Clearly showing this time to be during the time of the church age. So whether one agrees here to a 1000 or 2000 year heavenly reign, Satan cannot be loosed out of the Abyss to fulfill the prophecy. Yet that  loosing is seen in chapter 9 of Revelation in order to fulfill the prophecy. To fulfill the very prophecy that the preterists maintain was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Scripture clearly shows this cannot be."
I closed then as I close now, I leave it for the readers who seriously seek God's Truth of scripture to decide. And again I wish to thank Planetpreterist for allowing my articles to be presented to the viewing audience in the search for God's Truth.
God bless, Twospirits.
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Looking to Revelation: Written before or after 70A.D.?

Christian preterists in the body of Christ maintain that all of the New Testament books were written prior to 70 A.D., including the book of Revelation. (A note here; personally I have come to greatly dislike "labels and titles" used in the body of Christ. They come across as so anti-brotherly and disconnected from Christ's body of which we are "all members"). This is essential to their doctrine because if prophetic texts such as Revelation were written after 70 A.D., they could no longer assert that prophecies concerning these things seen in Revelation took place in 70 A.D. As a proof the Christian preterists maintain that "you" (ye) can and does only refer to Jesus' immediate physical audience specifically the apostles seen in the Olivet Discourse which speaks of coming prophecies. So they see the generation that "shall not pass" is the generation of the apostles. More will be said on this further on, but here I would first like to give a list on the dates of the New Testament epistles most (not all) scholars agree to. Concluded by their research of the historical, internal and external evidence of the scriptures.
Matthew and Mark-late 40's to early 50's A.D.
Luke-late 50's A.D. In Acts 1-1 Luke implies that he wrote his gospel prior to writing Acts. The book of Acts ends with Paul in prison about 62 A.D.
John-late 70's-80's A.D. Most scholars agree that John's gospel was written while John was at Ephesus in the 80's A.D. Others hold the writing to be in the late 70's A.D.
Acts-about 62 A.D. (see above).
Romans- Romans was written between 56-58 A.D. from Corinth during Paul's 3rd missionary journey.
1-2 Cor.-In 1 Cor. 16-8,19, Paul indicates he's writing from Ephesus. This time would be 55 A.D. Where shortly after he wrote 2 Cor., making 1-2 Cor. as being written in 55-56 A.D.
Galatians and Ephesians-mid 50's A.D.
Philippeans and Colossians-60-61 A.D.
1-2 Thess.-51-52 A.D.
1 Tim.-62-63 A.D.--2 Tim.-67 A.D.
Titus-66-67 A.D. In May or June of 68 A.D., Paul was beheaded in Rome. Making the letters of Titus and 2 Timothy his last writings.
Philemon-60-63 A.D.
Hebrews-64-69 A.D.
James 45-48 A.D.
1-2 Peter-64-67 A.D.
1-2-3 John-Most scholars date these writings in the 80's-90's A.D. While others in the late 70's-90's A.D. Written during the time that John was in Ephesus, where he also wrote the Gospel of John (late 70's-80's A.D.).
Jude-early 70's-80 A.D.
Revelation-mid 90's A.D.

Concerning the date of Revelation, among other reliable sources that could be given here, I will give some notes from "Godet's Bible Studies," that agree with other sources. There he gives internal evidence to corroberate the date of Revelation. Godt quotes: "The condition of the churches indicated in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation render the early date improbable. These churches were not founded before 55-58 A.D. Paul wrote to two of these churches, Ephesus and Colosse in the 50's and 61 A.D. Peter wrote to all the churches of that region several years later also. Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy at Ephesus in 67 A.D. shortly before his death. In these letters there is no hint of John being in that section of the world, or of the spiritual decay revealed in the letters to the angels of the churches of Ephesus, Sardis and Laodicea, yet this theory (early date) requires us to believe that not later than 68-69 A.D. John found these churches spiritually dead. The 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation describe a condition which could only have arisen a generation later than the date of Paul's intercourse with these churches." (End quote).
Godet goes on and notes the fact that a church organization reveals itself in the 7 churches which did not come forth until about the close of the 1st century. In each church there is one man, "the angel of the church," through whom the whole church is addressed. There is no hint of any individual enjoying a distinction like this until about the beginning of the 2nd century. He notes the expression, "The Lord's Day" does not occur in the earlier apostolitical writings. They always speak of the "first day of the week," but the writers of the 2nd century from the beginning use "the Lord's day." This term says Godet, then points to a period near the beginning of the 2nd century as being the date of Revelation. He notes that the expressions in chapters 2-9 and 3-9 point to a complete seperation between the church and the Jewish synagogue. This complete seperation did not take place until the destruction of Jerusalem was completed in 70 A.D. He notes "therefore we see by this lanquage of Rev. 2-9 and 3-9 that Revelation belongs to a later date beyond 70 A.D."
He further notes that we also know historically that the persecution of Nero was local and confined to Rome. And that death instead of banishment was the favorite method of punishment by Nero. So it is not probable that he would have "put to death" Paul and Peter and "banished" John. And there is no evidence that John as early as A.D. 68 ever visited the region of the seven churches in Asia. On the other hand, the persecution of Domitian was not local, and we know historically that he sent other Christians into exile. And we also know that the later years of John's life were in Ephesus and its regions. (End of Godet's notes).
Another reason for the late date set by scholars is from Irenaeous' works "Against Heresies," written in the mid to later 100's A.D. Irenaeous states there, "For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." Domitian reigned from 81-96 A.D., so if John wrote near the end of his reign, that would place the writing of Revelation somewhere in the 90's A.D. and no earlier.
Christian preterists attempt to get around this interpretation "for that was seen" by asserting that it was "John" that was seen toward the end of Domitian's reign, and not John's "vision." If this be so, why would Irenaeous use the word "that" rather than "John"? Would not Irenaeous write "for John was seen" to indicate "a person" rather than "that" which speaks of a "thing" or "object"? Irenaeous' writings show us that his use of lanquage was quite adequate. It was the "vision" that John saw that Irenaeous speaks of in his writing.
Besides Revelation, as noted, many scholars hold that the gospel of John was written while John was at Ephesus in the 80's A.D. Some see it to be written in the late 70's A.D. And most scholars date the writings of John 1-2-3 as being written in the 80's-90's A.D., where thereafter Revelation was written. Jude is another book that scholars date as being written no earlier than in the 70's A.D. So we see besides Revelation we have the gospel of John, John 1-2-3 and Jude, five books that many scholars see as having been written after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. And none speak that the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was the fulfillment of "all prophecy" spoken of in scripture by these very apostles who would complete the Inspired scriptures given them by the Lord. Rather in these books, they speak of the prophecies as yet future. A final note concerning the Christian preterist claim of a pre-date 70 A.D. writing of Revelation comes from Polycarp's writings. Polycarp who was the bishop of Smyrna recorded that no church in Smyrna existed during the ministry of Paul, and we know that Paul died in May or June of A.D. 68.
Returning now to the issue noted earlier of the Christian preterists maintaining that "you" can and does only refer to Jesus' immediate physical audience, specifically the apostles seen in the Olivet Discourse which speaks of coming prophecies. That the generation that "shall not pass" is the generation of the apostles. The problem here is that they fail to understand a simple principle seen in scripture with regard to prophetic passages. This bibical principle occurs in prophetic passages by which God speaks to an immediate physical audience such as the apostles or the Israelites of Moses' day for example, but is actually addressing "future unborn generations" as to their final fulfillment.
This principle in scripture is seen from the very onset when Moses recieved the word of God and proclaimed it to the Israelites. The Israelites understood that the words proclaimed to them "also applied" to their children in every age, and not just "their generation." Let's take a look at a prophecy given by Moses that shows this principle of scripture writing from the very start. Deut. 18-14, "For these nations which thou shalt possess---. (v.15) The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee* a prophet from the midst of thee*, of thy brethren---.(v.18) I will raise them up a prophet from among thy brethren---and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (v.19) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require of him."
Like the Olivet Discourse, there's no indication from the context or grammer that Moses is switching who his statement applies to in this passage. The "you" is applied to uniformly and is clear that this generation Moses is speaking to is the generation to whom Moses said "God will raise up unto you a prophet." Unto who? Unto the Israelites he is speaking to, those who were about to enter the Promised Land. It's clear from Acts 3-19-26 and 7-37 that Moses' prophecy of "the prophet like himself" did not come to pass for well over 1400 years when Jesus was born and came ministering to the people of Israel.
It is this same principle of lanquage that Jesus employed in his instructions and prophecies that the Christian preterists ignore to deduce in their conclusions. So their conclusions become flawed. So when we reread such passages as Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, we clearly see that the "you" Jesus is speaking to is defined by whichever generation would be around "when these things come to pass." It is not confined to the apostles and disciples of that day, anymore than Moses' prophecy was confined to the generation of Israelites who were his initial audience of whom the proclamation was given.
Christian preterists give further proof that prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D. by turning to the historical record of Josephus. Josephus recorded the besieging of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Even Josephus, a secular source records Jesus' "first coming," but not a "second coming" in any form as our brother preterists claim when turning to Josephus' writings. Also, where is the testimony of the believing community of that day to prove those claims? Imagine an event so significant as the return of Jesus Christ without "a single Christian writing" as a witness to it from that 1st century (70 A.D.) on. Even we record daily events far less significant than that in the media. All of the writings we have from the gospels to the epistles, to the non-canonical works of 1st, 2nd and 3rd century orthodox Christians perpetuate a futurist perspective that the second coming of Christ, the Revelation of John and prophecies related; the resurrection of the dead, the gathering of the elect, had not happened yet in their day.
All these words on this topic are uniform, and all of them placing these events in the future, from the 1st of them, the apostles, the early church fathers to the last. From these early church Christian writers from Polycarp to Ignatius who wrote after 70 A.D., all the way to Irenaeous who lived into the early 3rd century A.D. In all their teachings concerning "the beast prophecy and the second coming of Christ," not once do they mention that these things had already happened. But always places these events in the future, as did the apostles who wrote the New Testament under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus speaking of the tribulation in Matt. 24-22 says; "And except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." What is meant by "flesh" in this verse, "no flesh would have been saved"? This word translated "flesh" is the Greek "sarx." The Greek is "pasa sarx" to mean "all flesh," all life, a term that refers to all humanity. The words "all flesh" are used in Matt. 24-22; Mark 13-20; Luke 3-6; John 17-2; Acts 2-17; Romans 3-20; 1 Cor. 1-29;15-39; Gal. 2-16; 1 Peter 1-24. In every case except 1 Cor. 15-39 where Paul uses the term to include animal life, the expression describes "all humans." So we see that "pasa sarx" is to mean every person, everyone with no exceptions. This expression comes from the Septuagint, the Hebrew "kol basar," to mean "all flesh." All living creatures, all men, the whole human race. So to interpret "all flesh" in Matt. 24-22 and Mark 13-20 as referring to just the Jews living in Judea in 70 A.D. as the Christian preterists do, is to limit and misuse the term's proper meaning. "All flesh" clearly describes all humanity.
In Luke 21-35, when speaking concerning "that day" given in verse 34, "that day---will come on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth" *(Greek, "tes ges). Here the meaning is clear, it is the "entire earth," and not just a specific land area in the world. Looking to the parable in Matthew 13, we see here the "field" is the "world" (Greek, kosmos), the entire world. But Luke 4-5 uses the word "oikoumene" to mean "the whole world." In Luke 21-25, the word "earth" is "ge". In each case to mean the whole earth. So it is in Matt. 24-30, the word "earth" is "ge". In Matt. 24-26, there he uses the Greek word "earth"-"oikoumene." The context indicates that "ge" and "oikoumene" was intended to convey in the strictest sense "the entire earth." So we see the words were being used interchangeably in the same context.
Rev. 3-10 is another passage among others in the New Testament that use both "earth" (ges) and "world" (oikoumene). Here Jesus states that an "hour of temptation" was coming upon the whole world (oikoumene) to try those who dwell on the earth (ges). Using earth interchangeably with world indicate that both words were to be understood in that sense. We read in Rev. 12-9, "---Satan, which decieveth the whole world*, he was cast out into the earth (gen)---." In verse 12, a woe "for the earth (gen) and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you." Here again, the word for earth is "gen," the entire earth. Using "earth" and "sea" together indicates that this speaks of the entire world which consists of the land and the sea. This is not speaking of a restricted area of earth/land neither in Jerusalem or the Roman Empire as the Christian preterist doctrines hold to. Did Satan just decieve those in the Roman Empire or "the whole world"? The context shows that "oikoumene" in Luke 4-5; Acts 17-31; Hebrews 1-6;2-5; Rev. 3-10;12-9 and 16-14 signifies "the whole world."
In Matt. 24-30 we read; "---all the tribes of the earth" (ge). The Greek word "ge" is to mean the entire world. When "ge" is used in the limited sense, it is used in the limited sense of land within a specified region given in the text. A few examples are; Matt. 11-24, "land (ge) of Sodom"; John 3-22, "land (gen) of Judea." Hebrews 8-8-9, "land (ges) of Egypt"; Matt. 14-34, "land (gen) of Gennesaret"; Acts 13-17-19, "in the land (ge) of Egypt---in the land (ge) of Canaan." The contexts throughout the New Testament determined when "ge" was being used in the sense of the entire earth or a specific land area. Rev. 1-7 reads, "all the tribes of the earth" (ai phulai tes ges) will mourn because of him." Here the word "phulai" means "tribes" and "ges" means "earth," the entire world/earth.
Christian preterists maintain that the word "tribes" seen in Matt. 24-30 and Rev. 1-7 refer only to Israel, the tribes of Israel, and not the tribes of the world. The Greek word for "tribe" is "phule", the Septuagint also used "phule", but also in reference to "non-Hebriac tribes and nations." To give here a few examples; Gen. 12-3, "---and in thee shall all the tribes of the earth (phulai tes ges) be blessed." This is also seen in Gen. 28-14 when the promise was given to Jacob. "---in thee and thy seed shall all the tribes of the earth (phulai tes ges) be blessed." These tribes of the earth are seen in Ezek. 20-32; "---we will be as the nations, and as the tribes of the earth (phulai tes ges) to worship stocks and stones." So we can know that the tribes in Matt. 19-18 referred only to the 12 tribes of Israel because the text says so, but there is no such "qualifier" in Matt. 24-30 and Rev. 1-7. Just as there is no qualifier of the word "ges" (earth) with "of Judea" or "of Jerusalem" to show that Jesus meant for "ges" (earth) to refer only to the region around Jerusalem. Christian preterists then must point us to "linquistic reasons" in the context of the statement to support their claims.
Turning to the "time texts" Christian preterists point to in helping to support their doctrine. In using these references they point to Rev. 1-1 "---things which must shortly* come to pass---." Rev. 1-3, "---the time is at hand*." Rev. 3-11, "--I am coming quickly;*--." Rev. 22-6-7, "---things which must come to pass shortly.*---behold, I am coming quickly;*---." Rev. 22-10, "---the time is at hand.*" Rev. 22-12, "Behold, I am coming quickly*;---." Rev. 22-20, "---Yea, I am coming quickly.*" They hold these time frame references as teaching it requires, necessitates and demands a 1st century fulfillment. The Greek word "tachu" is to mean "swiftly" or "quickly" as in speed, not as in time as they translate the word. The Greek "en tachei" is to literally mean (en) "in" (tachei) "speed". It is not to mean "soon" or "shortly" as the word is sometimes translated which indicates "time", but rather to come "in speed,"---"swiftly, quickly." In reading Rev. 1-1, it literally and should read, "---things (the prophetic events in the book) which must "in speed" (en tachei) come to pass;---." In Rev. 22-7, it literally and should read, "Behold, I come quickly "(tachu--swiftly, in speed);---." We see by the wording used here in Rev. 1-1;22-6-7 and 3-11;22-20, its not referring to something happening "soon " or "shortly" as in "time". The wording refers rather to "the rate of speed" in which these series of events given in Revelation and Christ's coming would occur "when" they would come to pass.
We read in Romans 16-20, "But the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly*---." The word "shortly" used here is the Greek "tachos" which means "speed", not "shortly" as translated. It is the same word used in Rev. 1-1 and 22-6, "things which must shortly* come to pass." Where it should read "must "swiftly" or "speedily" come to pass," whenever they would occur, as we see in Romans 16-20. For Satan has yet to recieve his final crushing blow, even though it has been nearly 2000 years since Paul wrote that this would take place. The very last words of Jesus varifies the "tachos" meaning of the word. "Surely I come quickly (tachu, swiftly, in speed)." (Rev. 22-20).
Luke 21-24 tells us that the Jews would be led away into all nations from the time of Jerusalem's fall, and Jerusalem would be trampled down "until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Luke 21-25-28 goes on to say that until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled, there shall be signs in the heavens and earth, and a distress of men and nations in those times. "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption ( not judgement) draweth nigh." Continuing in Luke 21-31-36, "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Not the generation of the 1st century, but as the context shows, the generation that shall exist when "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled," as the general signs given occur in greater frequency. It is in those times of "that generation" that sees these things being fulfilled that Luke 21-34-36 speaks to. "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them  (all humans) that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (tes ges). This verse is clear, it speaks of these things coming on the entire earth, and not just a specific land area and peoples of Jerusalem and the Roman Empire. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
In closing, the Greek word "parousia" means "presence." And the Greek word "erchomenon" is to mean "a literal presence" of a person or thing. This word "erchomenon" is seen in Matt. 24-30; Mark 13-26 and Luke 21-27, and as noted is to mean a literal presence. Every time Jesus is said to come "with clouds" in glory and power in the gospels and people "see" him, the word "erchomenon" is used. The Greek word "parousia" (coming or presence) is given in Matt. 24-3,27,37,39. Where the Greek word "erchomai" (literal presence) is given in Matt. 24-30,42,43,44. Both words given in these verses are seen as being interchangeable. That is they speak of not only his "coming presence", but at its fulfillment, his "literal all-eye seeing presence." This certainly did not happen in 70 A.D. as Christian preterists claim. We see that these verses speak of not a 70 A.D. fulfillment, but a future fulfillment concerning these events that lead to the 2nd coming of Christ.
Christian preterists strongly hold to textual time statements given in scripture, but not so with the 1000 years time statement of Revelation chapter 20. There they view it or spiritualize it as representing a time frame of about 40 years from the crucifixion of Christ to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. But this is totally contrary to their view of scripture time texts they strongly hold to. The text they use in their defense of this 1000 years time text is Romans 16-20. "The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.*" They take this word "shortly" as a time text, but as noted, the word is "tachos" and is to mean "quickly, swiftly, speedily, when " that time would come to its fulfillment.
When looking to the text of Revelation chapter 20 that speak of the 1000 years, contrary to those who would "spiritualize" this time as other than literal are in error. For the text shows it to be a clearly defined period of time of a literal numerical value. We see that there are specific events described as taking place at the beginning of the 1000 years. And there are specific events described as taking place at the end of the 1000 years of all those resurrected. Therefore it is clearly seen as a quantity of time marked with a beginning and marked with an end.
God bless, Twospirits.
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Jesus' Coming in Clouds and the Resurrection of the dead.

Some of the doctrines concerning the spiritual aspects spoken of in scripture that the Christian preterists hold to are correct, but they fail to take in the literal fulfillment aspects also seen in the scriptures. So we need to look at a few of these issues.

Cloud Comings and Cosmic Activity in Scripture.

Christian preterists insist that time frame references are always literal (except Rev. chap. 20-the 1000 years) while cosmic content is figurative with a limited purpose to express God's judgements on specific nations in the past. But there is a problem they create for themselves when they reduce "all biblical predictions of cosmic activity to earthly national judgement events." They say the prophets used "cosmic catastrophic lanquage" to describe military and political activity involving Israel or the church and the surrounding nations. Christ's return "in the clouds" is also understood of a prophetic form of an invisible divine judgement visitation.
The apostles actually saw Jesus ascend into a cloud and were told that he would return in like manner as he was seen going (Acts 1-9-11). They equate this description of this physical experience the apostles had with "poetic passages" in the Old Testament of such verbal images as God "riding" on a cloud or making clouds his "chariot." Similarly, the literal universal flood of Noah's day is made a parallel to a non-literal universal fire at "the Day of the Lord." Peter tells us that "both" the flood and the fire bring the world's destruction (2 Peter 3-5-7,10-13). Yet they understand this destruction to mean "the end of the Old Covenant age" by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. To carry forward God's purpose in the new order (new heavens and earth; Rev. 21-22) centered in the church and exclusion of Israel.
According to Christian preterist doctrine, which speaks of "cloud coming imagery" illustrated in the Old Testament, it was standard prophetic form to write of the Lord's coming in or on a cloud, or clouds to bring about the fall of a nation. Predicted by the prophets that included "sun and moon darkened, fire, stars falling, sky rolling up, heavens dissolving away, earth moving, shaking, etc." They hold that none of these acts of God were universe destroying or time ending events. They give an extensive list of scripture passages to back up their belief in this long and well established biblical precedent as being earthly national judgements of a "non-literal coming of the Lord in the clouds accompanied by a non-literal time ending catastrophe."
Yet not one prophet "used cosmic, catastrophic, collapsing universe lanquage to announce the fall of nations" in the historical past. By bundling together many such references it creates the "impression" that a standard prophetic form exists where it does not. Sometimes prophets wrote of earthquakes, darkness, or cosmic affects that are seen as limited and temporal in scope. The prophets did not convey a final cosmic catastrophe in those cases. Predictive prophecy includes lanquage that seems to spell the complete upheaval of the natural order. Lanquage of a "collspsing universe" that the prophets speak of is a judgement that targets "the whole world and all nations," not some specific nation in the past. It is important to pay attention to the literary form whether or not we're reading "predictive prophecy" in a particular case makes all the difference. If there are common patterns of expression in prophetic passages, we look to find them "in prophetic passages" not somewhere else.
Taking a look at some of the "cloud coming" texts they use to support their doctrine: Looking to Isaiah 19-1, here God is coming on a cloud to judge the nation of Egypt, but he is "riding" the cloud, and the cloud is a swift one. And Egypt is depicted as having a "heart that will melt" as the Lord "swiftly" dashes over her borders. WE see in this text that the Lord does not come "in" the cloud to bring judgement, but rather "rides" on the cloud.
Psalms 18-9-12, again we see here that God does not come in or on a cloud in the poem, but he is riding on a "cherub" and on the "wings of the wind." The clouds that are mentioned are thick and dark in order to "conceal" him and not "reveal" him. This text they use contrasts sharply with the Lord's ascension in the cloud in Acts chapter one. In reading Psalm 68-4, we see that God is not coming in judgement against nations, rather it is a statement "of praises" with no reference to enemies, battles or judgements. "The Lord rides on the clouds" is a reference to his might and sovereignty over nature.
Psalm 104-3-4 announces God's greatness over the world he created. He "makes the clouds his chariot," and the Lord "walks" rather than "rides" as in Psalm 18 "on the wings of the wind." The Lord coming or appearing in order "to judge" is not in view in this text.
Another text they use is Dan. 7-13, of their cloud coming theory. But the coming here does not lead to "the judgement and fall of a nation" (Jerusalem's fall in 70 A.D.). This is the Old Covenant reference to the "Son of man" title that Jesus used of himself over and over again. It is the reference to "the Son of man coming with the clouds" of Jesus' pronouncement before Caiaphas. This is also the parallel passage to Luke's description of Jesus' ascension and the statement of the angel's promise that he would return "in like manner." This verse reads, "I was watching in the night visions and behold, one like the Son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him." Here, he is not coming to destroy, he is coming into the presence of God with all nations assembled.
The next verse completes the vision and explains what his coming is all about. "Then to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that all peoples, nations and lanquages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed." Many Bible scholars have indicated that this scriptural passage would have come to the minds of Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin present when Jesus made this statement that "from this point on, they would see him at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds." As it would come to mind when the apostles watched the Lord ascend into a cloud and heard the angels announce that he would come back in the same way. We see Dan. 7-13 does not indicate "a cloud coming judgement" by Jesus on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Rather the text shows the inuagaration of an eternal Messiah kingdom in the presence of the Ancient of Days.
Another text they use is Ezek. 38-16, that states that God would come up against Israel "as a cloud to cover the land." Notice that they do not seem to see the enormous linquistic difference between coming "in" a cloud and coming "as" a cloud. Also Ezek. 38-16 states that "Gog" not "God" is the cloud-like invader of Israel. So a study of cloud imagery in these texts of the Old Testament Christian preterists use indicate that "clouds" have a "variety of meanings in scripture," and that there is "no standard structure" to be found that they hold to.
They also generally believe, like the "cloud comings," that the prophets consistently wrote of the fall of specific nations as if the world was coming to an end; that is using the lanquage of "a collapsing universe" seen in scripture. In reality however, the prophets never predicted that the "universe would collapse" in association with the fall of nations in the past. In a few places they did speak of less activity then cosmic, atmospheric and geological activity when writing about God's judgement on specific nations. These predictions at times can be seen as obviously figurative. But they give no valid evidence that it was "standard prophetic practice" to state "end of a nation predictions in end of the world lanquage." The prophets used that kind of talk for God's predicted judgement "on the whole world."
Isaiah 13 includes lanquage that can be taken to mean the complete upheaval of the natural order. That God will "make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place" (13-13). However, the immediate context indicates that God is punishing "the world" (13-11). Isaiah here is not speaking of just the fall of a specific nation, as an example, Jerusalem (70 A.D.) in the past. We see Isaiah 24 also concerns a universal judgement "on the earth and among the nations" (24-13). "The kings of the earth below" (24-21) are being punished by the Lord. The severe cosmic activity is more thoroughly documented in Isa. 24-18-21, that the prophet is speaking of "a universal judgement" (24-1,3,4,6,13,17,21).
Isaiah 34 states, "All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll, all the starry host will fall like withered leaves, etc." (34-4). This is not talking about Edom introduced in the next verse. We see the passage begins as a call for judgement "on the earth--the world--all nations" (34-1-2). Zephaniah 1 is clearly a prediction of the end of the world and of all natural life (1-2,3,15,18).
Christian preterists argue that by the 1st century the prophets used an established systematic form in such expressions as clouds, falling stars and etc., were so entrenched then, that when Christians of that time used those expressions clouds, stars falling, end of age, everyone knew what they meant. Another national judgement was in view, in this case, the destruction of Jerusalem itself. According to them this was the preferred way of speaking about Jerusalem's fate in letters to churches and sermons preached in the first two-thirds of the 1st century. Hardly anyone would come out and say "Jerusalem is going to fall as a result of God's judgement." Rather they preferred to use the "standard encoded method" of expressing themselves.

Does Scripture teach a bodily Resurrection from the Dead?

We read in John 5-18-19,21-22; "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he had not only broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (verses 21-22), For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but had committeth all judgement unto the Son;---." Jesus mentions here two works that he performs; "the raising and quickening of the dead," and "judgement." In John 5-24-26 Jesus discusses the first work, "the resurrection of life, and the second work, "a resurrection of judgement" in John 5-27-30.
The work of raising the dead and quickening them is an on-going work that is described in John 5-24-25 and the future work is described in verses 28-29. We read in verses 24-25, "Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life. Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live." The quickening and raising of the dead is seen as a present activity by the phrase "and now is." Where the future activity is seen by the phrase "the hour is coming" in the same verse. Before people hear and believe, they are in a state of condemnation and death (verses 24-25). The Greek word for "death" in verse 24 is "thanatos." This word means a death of the body in which the soul and body are seperated implying the idea of hell. The Greek word translated "dead" in verse 25 is "nekros." In this verse Jesus is speaking of those who are spiritually dead. "Nekros" is used in scripture by Jesus to refer to both physical death and spiritual death.
To give a few examples, Matt. 8-22, "But Jesus said unto him, follow me; let the dead (nekros) bury their dead" (nekros). Ephe. 2-1,5-6, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead (nekros) in trespasses and sins. (Verses 5-6), Even when we were dead (nekros) in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ---And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." We see in these passages that "nekros" refers to both those who are "physically dead" and those who are still physically alive but "spiritually dead." So we see that verse 25, "those who hear and live" are those who are dead "spiritually." They are in a state of death and condemnation (verse 24).
WE read in John 6-39-40,44,54, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all he hath given me I shall lose nothing, but shall raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Verse 44), No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Verse 54), Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." As we see from these passages, the promise is clear, that those who have heard and believed in him and in the one who sent him, will be raised up by Jesus "at the last day." This promise is in regard to "a bodily resurrection" as we shall see in John 5-28-30, but first we go to verses 26-27.
"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man." These verses essentially repeat verses 21-22 but serve as a transition between the spiritual resurrection in verses 24-25 and the bodily resurrection seen in verses 28-29. Verse 26 speaks of those who have believed which will lead to a bodily resurrection (verse 29). Verse 27 speaks of the execution of judgement of those who rejected Christ's word will one day face. The bodily resurrection of damnation spoken of in verse 29. It is also seen in other passages such as: John 12-48, "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him; the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him at the last day." John 3-18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 5-28-29, "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear the sound of his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
This resurrection is a "different one" than what is spoken of in verses 24-25. First, note the difference in the time statements. Verse 25 reads, "---the hour is coming, and now is---." But verse 28 reads, "---for the hour is coming---." Showing this resurrection has yet to come at an unspecified time in the future. The resurrection (spiritual resurrection) in verse 25 however was going on at that time and would continue in the future, in what is called the church age. Verse 28 reads, "---all that are in the graves shall hear his voice---." The normal understanding of this phrase means that "all corpses in their graves will hear Jesus' voice and will come out." It is obvious here that the word "grave" refers to a physical object in which corpses are placed, rather than to the place where the spirits of the dead dwell.
The Greek word for "graves" in verse 28 is "mneimois" which is a plural of "mneimon." Mneimon is used 42 times in the New Testament. It is translated 29 times as "sepulcher," 8 times as "grave," and 5 times as "tomb", all in the "literal sense of the word." That is a hole in the ground where you put a dead body, and the only way this word is used in the New Testament. The Greek word for the place where the spirits of the dead dwell is "hades." The following two verses are the only other places in the New Testament where the exact Greek phrase "en tois mneimois" found in verse 28 is used. Mark 5-3, "Who had his dwelling among the tombs,* and no man could bind him, no, not with chains;---." (Verse 5), And always night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs,* crying, and cutting himself with stones." In each of these verses we see "en tois mneimois" refers to literal physical tombs. So we can see without any doubt that Jesus in John 5-28 is saying that all of the corpses in their graves will hear his voice and come forth, just as Lazarus heard him and came out of his grave literally in John chapter 11. Jesus is speaking of a bodily resurrection and not a spiritual resurrection.
Another difference that can be seen between the spiritual resurrection described in verses 24-25 and the physical one in verse 28 is "who" is being resurrected. The resurrection described in verses 24-25 applies only to "he that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me." This is how "the dead shall hear---and--they that hear shall live." This is the believer's spiritual resurrection. In verse 28 however, we read "all" that "are in their graves" will hear his voice and come forth. This clearly is a physical resurrection. It cannot refer to the spiritual resurrection because it includes "both" believers "and" non-believers. The word "all" means "all without exception." The clear and plain sense of this verse is that "every corpse" will rise and face judgement.
Regarding the universal resurrection, they are spoken of in several passages as well. Rev. 20-13, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works." Matt. 25-34, "Then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;---." Matt. 25-41, "Then shall he say unto them on his left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;---."
The only spiritual resurrection that the Bible records is that which happens when a person is "born again." Jesus described it as both a present and future resurrection in John 5-24-25. This has been happening for 2000 years and still happening today. The bodily resurrection of "all" is yet to come, as John 5-28 reads; "All that are in the graves shall hear the sound of his voice and shall come forth." The Greek word "mneimois," translated "graves" here, is only used in the New Testament to refer to a place where a corpse is lain. And the word never refers to the place where the spirits of the dead dwell. Jesus is not referring to a spiritual resurrection because the resurrection involves "all persons," and not believers only. This occurs with Jesus' coming at the end of the "Christian age," being "the end of the ages" as 1 Cor. 10-11 reveals to us. "Now all these things happened unto them for examples; and they are written for our* admonition, upon whom (the church) the end of the ages are come" Here we see that the "end of the ages" is to mean "the church age." Where at that time "had come," or began, where at the end of the ages, the Christian age, would come the coming of Christ.
We read in 1 Cor. 15-23, "But every man in his own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Paul uses the term "fruits" here as an analogy that his audience could understand, in explaining the truth concerning the resurrection of the dead in the prior verses. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept " (have died; 1 Cor. 15-20). In this verse Paul is speaking not only of a spiritual death, but a literal physical death that Christ came to restore (Verse 22). The spiritual "and" physical resurrection is seen in verse 23. Christ the firstfruits came and died and was "physically resurrected" in order to bring us first a spiritual resurrection, then "at the last day" the bodily resurrection from the grave, as can be seen in the following words. "---afterward (after Christ fulfills that which he came for), "they that are Christ's---." Who are they that are Christ's? Those who had believed in him and in whom sent him, recieving at that time a spiritual resurrection. Then his coming would bring about their "bodily resurrection" as can be seen in reading the following words. "Afterward (after their spiritual resurrection) they that are Christ's (will be resurrected literally) "AT HIS COMING." Then we read what occurs next in 1 Cor. 15-24-25. "THEN cometh the end (the end of the church age), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom* (the church kingdom) to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all* rule and all* authority and power. For he must reign (in heaven, see Rev. 20-4-6), till he hath put all enemies under his feet (see Rev. 20-7-11). The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (see Rev. 20-12-15).
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (dead). For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead (the literal dead) in Christ shall rise first. Then we ( in Christ) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (see Rev. chap. 21-22). Wherefore confort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4-15-18).
In our continuing search for God's Truth;
God Bless,  Twospirits.
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The Covenants Relating to God's Salvation Plan for Mankind.

When our understanding of the Bibical Covenants is in place, we are better able to put the other pieces together without forcing them to fit. When we speak of the bibical covenants as being important to our understanding of prophecy, we are referring to the Abrahamic Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, the New Covenant, and the Palestine (Canaan) Covenant; that being the return of the Jews as a nation in Palestine promised in scripture. Other covenants are found in scripture, but these here are the ones important to understanding end-time prophecy.
There were three basic areas of provision made in the Abrahamic Covenant. First, there were "personal" blessings for Abraham, 2nd, there were blessings for Abraham's descendants, "national" blessings for the Jews. Third, there were "universal" blessings, which would include all people. In these ways God promised to bless Abraham and to make his name great.
The most significant issue related to the Abrahamic covenant has to do with its "nature." Is it a  conditional covenant or an unconditional covenant? How one answers that question determines the framework of one's prophetic studies of God's Plan for Mankind.
Gen. 12-1-6 contains only the first of several conditions given to Abraham. Scripture states that during his lifetime, Abraham did fulfill all the conditions given by God, so God ratified the covenant by His oath in Genesis chapters 15 and 22; making the covenant "unconditional" from that point onward. Thus God's covenant promises to Abraham are unconditional and certain of fulfillment.
Though the covenant was unconditional, there was a condition attached to the "participants." If any involved in the covenant chose not to "walk before the Lord," they would lose out on the benefits and blessings of the covenant. This is a critical distinction to keep in mind. Sin and disobedience would cause the loss of the covenant blessings but would never cancel "the covenant." The blessings of the covenant were conditional on the obedience of an individual or individuals. But the complete fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant depends on God alone. And he intends to fulfill this covenant even if his people Israel are not faithful and obedient.
Scripture makes clear that the Abrahamic covenant remained in effect even though Israel failed badly. The failure and disobedience of Israel did not set aside the covenant promises. God spoke through the prophet Jeremiah and guaranteed that as long as the sun, moon, and stars existed the nation would continue before him. (Jer.31-35-37) "--a nation before me forever."
Several times God declared that this Abrahamic covenant was an everlasting covenant. And several times he stated that "the land of Canaan" (Palestine proper) would be an everlasting possession of Israel's. No time limit was placed on this covenant provision, which indicates that Israel was to remain "a nation" forever. These promises are constantly referred to throughout the Old Testament, with the nature of these promises confirming the continuance of Israel  as "a nation." So "says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night---. If this fixed order departs from me, declares the Lord, then the offspring of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever" (Jer. 31-35-36).
Galatians 3-6-9 states that believers are "sons of Abraham." True believers in the church both Jew and Gentile, are seen as the ones to whom the covenant blessings come. It is clear that many of the promises will not be fulfilled by the natural seed; Israelites also had to be a people of faith-a spiritual seed. Gentiles as the spiritual seed of Abraham means that they are "heirs of the promise" given "to all the families of the earth" (Gen. 12-3). Now what must be noted is that Gentile believers are not said to fulfill the promises that were given concerning "their land," and they being restored as a nation kingdom in Palestine (Canaan proper). This promise belongs to the physical descendants of Abraham, the Jewish people. To understand the fulfilling of the Abrahamic covenant we must keep these three provisions given in the covenant to the "seed of Abraham" in mind. There are promises that have to do with "national Israel" and there are promises that go beyond national Israel and include all the nations of the earth.
The Mosiac covenant was a "conditional" covenant, and was not a covenant agreement that included Gentiles. But it was Israel's constitution giving them laws  and ordinances to guide all aspects of national life. The Palestine land covenant is another provision of the Abrahamic covenant. In the original covenant, God promised a land area to Abraham (Gen. 12-1;13-14-17;15-7;17-7-8). The Palestine covenant, where they would be restored and made a nation again in Canaan (Palestine) was also an unconditional covenant promise. That promise, where Israel would eventually return and live in the land as a nation again where their forefathers had dwellt. Scripture states that "this promise" given them would be fulfilled in the final times, and given as an "unconditional promise."
Scripture also declares, which we believe and hold, that the land promises given to Abraham's physical seed were literally fulfilled in the Old Testament. The time of this literal fulfillment can be placed either at the time of the conquest under Joshua or in the days of King Solomon.
We could summerize these promises concerning the land inherited by Israel as follows: The land was promised through Abraham (the promised boundaries and areas of the land), the promise was renewed to Isaac, Jacob and Moses. It was fulfilled literally through Joshua. Some Bible scholars find the actual fulfillment in Solomon's day. Compare 1 Kings 4-21 and 5-4 with Gen. 15-18. Yet much of the futurist belief rests on the "assumption" that God has never given Israel all the land promised through Abraham.
The scriptures confirm that the LOrd indeed kept the covenant promise that Abraham's physical seed would recieve the land boundary areas given Abraham. But it does not "annul the covenant promise" given the prophets and David of their returning to their forefather's land (Canaan proper), and becoming a nation again in the end times. Where in those times they would return to the land and become a nation again. Though, they would not recieve the "boundaries" of the Abrahamic land covenant promise given in the Old Testament. For God fulfilled those promises in the kingdoms of David and Solomon, if not in the days of Joshua.
Therefore when looking to the number of prophecies seen concerning the dispersion, regathering and conversion of Israel to their "land" and they being made a nation again; it is to be seen in the light of a "provision promise" of the prophecy's fulfillment for the physical seed of Israel. Some of these promises are seen in Isa. 11-11-12;14-1-2; Jer. 16-14-15;23-7-8;30-3;31-36-40;32-37-44; Ezek. 20-42; and etc. In these scriptures and others that could be given, we see in the plainest of lanquage God saying he would return Israel as a nation in the land of Israel in spite of their sins.
When looking to these many scriptures that speak of Israel's return to their land in the end times, no scripture is given concerning "the areas or boundaries of this land" that would be given them. The many scriptures of this final return promise simply states; "I will bring you back to "the land" where your forefathers had dwelt, and there I will make you a nation again." If the boundaries of the Abrahamic covenant were to be given them in their final return to their land, why did not the Lord relate this to his prophets and David? There is no scripture that speaks of this final return, where for example it would state: "I will bring you back to the land where your forefathers dwelt, the land they possessed from the Euphrates to the River Egypt." We see no scripture that speaks of Israel's return to the land in that way.
If this final return to the land were to be, as many believe, to be fulfilled "from the Euphrates to the River Egypt", why didn't the Lord reveal these words to the prophets? It is clear through the scriptures he did not, for the simple reason that this promise of the Abrahamic covenant was fulfilled at its latest through David and Solomon's reign. This fulfilled "that" provision promise given them by the Lord to the physical seed of the nation of Israel. The provision of the "future restoration" of Israel's physical seed, as seen in scripture is the promise that they would be regathered and made a nation again "in the land", in the general land areas surrounding the land of Palestine proper. In those areas where their forefathers originally dwelt, period. And not in the outer areas they at one time held.
This provision or "unconditional covenant promise" of Israel's restoration nationally was fulfilled by the Lord in the 20th century. Israel began returning to their land and they later became a nation again in 1948. This promise of fulfillment is seen in the Davidic covenant. David was promised that he would have a "house" that would last forever. The word "house" has reference to David's physical line (seed). God guaranteed that the line of David would endure forever, and never be cut off. David's "throne" would also be established forever. The "throne" speaks of ruling authority. This is a guarantee or promise that the right to rule would always belong to the physical seed of David as a nation or kingdom. Even though there would be times because of disobedience where they would lose that right of remaining a nation.
In the various passages, Israel's restoration back to the land and its rebuilding are connected to the New Covenant. These scriptures point with certainty to the fact that the New Covenant will be made between the Lord, the nation of Israel, as well as with the Gentile nations. The nature of the New Covenant is like the other covenants that develop the Abrahamic covenant, it is both eternal and unconditional. The unconditional aspect of the New Covenant is seen that no conditions are placed on Israel in any of the scriptures that deal with this covenant. The promises of the New Covenant are primarily spiritual in nature, though some material blessings related to the land are also included. In the New Covenant, besides the Gentiles, God provides for the salvation of Israel. Though not every member of Israel and Judah will be saved. Of course, neither the spiritual nor physical restor